7/27/2022 0 Comments Is the Church the "New Israel"?First Opponent Jay: Even in the Old Testament, it is confirmed ethnic Israel isn’t exclusively the people of God. Think about Ruth, Uriah, Ephraim and Manasseh, etc. But more so than individual examples, see what the Old Testament Scriptures say: Isaiah 49:6 Zechariah 2:11 Jeremiah 16:19-21 Psalm 22:27 Genesis 12:3 Genesis 17:4-6 Malachi 1:11 So the question is, why are so many still so fixated on promises to ethnic Israel exclusively? Why, when the New Covenant has been established, which Hebrews describes as better than the Old, do people want to believe this barely 200-year-old theology that was never believed in all of church history previously? Why is it that both the Old and New Testament explicitly say that the people of God aren’t just ethnic Israelites, yet people so militantly believe that there are some promises just for ethnic Israel? What are we doing? Do we believe the whole message of the Gospel, or do we chop it up into pieces, some for the Gentiles and some for ethnic Israelites? Skunk: This issue of the future of ethnic Israel and God's promises obviously concerning the ethnic people is so, so important to discuss, because it impacts how we understand the covenants themselves, and about the faithfulness of God despite the unfaithful Israel. And..... This issue may seem more complicated and overwhelming to address than it really is, because there is so much unnecessary confusion added to the pot of Christian thinking through traditions. But I believe we can arrive at the correct reading and understanding of the OT and NT. I believe God has always sought to broadcast to all the world nations that He is the true and living God since His judgments of Egypt to save Israel from slavery. And God tells the world where He is: in Israel. That is evangelism. Yes, there are many Gentiles who come to Yahweh because God is evangelistic. But I believe you are making an invalid corollary. The believing Gentiles are God's people the same way all believing Israelites are God's people (obviously). Not all Israelites believe in Yahweh, and are truly saved, even today. And................ at the same time, the written promises which God obviously makes with ethnic Israel as a whole is with Israel; that is the only conclusion from exegesis. To be specific but without going into details here: the Mosaic and the New covenants are both made with ethnic Israel. The Messiah is Hebrew. The blood sacrificial system that was a picture of the One Sacrifice who would take away sins of the world is Hebrew. Isaiah 53, talking about the future repentance of the entire ethnic Israel, is Hebrew. Jesus points out that salvation is distinctly from the Jews (Jn 4:22). Jesus weeps for Israel and speaks of the future day of their repentance. Paul speaks in Romans 11 the future day of their repentance. .... And all the promises of an eternally faithful God to a rebellious people are unfailing promises, and He will accomplish them all as He always has done, even their future nation-wide repentance. Jay: so, to those Gentiles who have become the people of God, the promises to Israel do not belong to them as well? Skunk: You would have to specify which promises you are talking about. Certainly, the actual work of God indicated by new covenant promises of Jeremiah 31 of complete forgiveness and regeneration apply, in an "already, not yet" fulfillment, to both Jew and Gentile of any era, because salvation by faith, by the Holy Spirit's regenerating work, is the same for all. At the same time, these promises are irrevocable promises to the ethnic Israel, and must be truly fulfilled some day in the future when all Israel will repent and believe in their Messiah. Jay: so… you are saying the promise of the re-grafting is the only promise solely to ethnic Israel and not including all of true Israel? Skunk: You would have to define "true Israel." I do not know what you mean by that. Jay: here’s some verses that will tell you: John 1:12-13 Galatians 3:6-7 Galatians 3:29 Romans 9:8 Ephesians 3:6 1 Peter 2:10 Let me know if it’s still unclear. Skunk: Yes, I read and believe these same passages. I see how the believers, Jew or Gentile, are called the people of God, children of God, spiritual children of Abraham by faith, the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant which says all the nations will be blessed in him. And I see that you believe that, on those bases, you have validity in calling the believers "true Israel," then taking all the promises referring to "Israel" and inserting your definition of who "Israel" really is, so that the promises do not refer to ethnic Israel anymore. And I believe your labelling the believers as "true Israel" or "new Israel" brings unnecessary confusion in the normal exegesis of passages referring to Israel. Case in point: you are not sure who is being regrafted in in Romans 11, even though Paul makes clear in verse 11,14 that he is referring to his own fellow Israelites as opposed to Gentiles. Jay: how does it bring confusion of any kind? The New Testament sheds greater light into what we’ve already seen in the OT. Here’s something to consider. Part of the reason why the Jews missed their Messiah is because they thought He would come as a literal earthly king, who would literally free them from (at that time) their oppressors, Rome, instead of understanding the promises of the OT Scriptures in light of what Jesus was telling them. When Jesus didn’t do what they expected Him as Messiah to do in a very literal sense, they thought He was not the Messiah. And now, dispensationalism is making the same mistake. But I want to clarify something. You said that I am inserting my definition of who Israel is into passages of Scripture. Yet you agreed with me that Scripture says all who believe are Israel. That seems rather inconsistent, especially since Scripture tells us Israel is comprised of those who believe. As Romans 9:8 says, not all who are Israel ARE Israel. Israel is comprised of those who have the faith of Abraham. Not of flesh and blood, but those who are children of the promise. Those promises in the OT are to believing Israel. Yes, that includes ethnic Israelites, but it is not exclusive to them. Think about it. The doubting generation of Israel did not get to go into the promised land; they died off, because they were not true Israel. They did not trust in God. Skunk: You misunderstood me; I never agreed with you that the believers can be called "Israel." I believe we have to be precise about the wording of Romans 9:6... The context shows that Paul is grieving over his fellow, ethnic, unbelieving Israelites, "from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh." Then Paul does what every believer should when faced with grief (as Jesus also does in John 6:37); he meditates on the sovereignty of God in salvation. Still speaking about ethnic Israel, Paul says, "They are not all Israel who are from Israel." Paul means to say that the promises of salvation to Israel has never meant to be fulfilled for every single Hebrew, but always a remnant (also in Romans 11:4,5). The believing Gentiles are not at all in view here. Much less... Paul is certainly NOT referring to Gentiles as Israel. The new covenant promises of the OT regarding spiritual salvation and complete forgiveness indeed apply to all who believe. Salvation by faith, by the Holy Spirit, is the same for all. But as I said, These promises look forward to the future day of salvation for ethnic Israel, as confirmed by Jesus and the NT writers. In other words, Yahweh has not abandoned ethnic Israel, but one day accomplish the new covenant promises and grant repentance to the entire future generation. No other nation has such guarantee of nation-wide repentance. There are also other details of a future ethnic Israel which have yet to be fulfilled. The Jews certainly thought their Messiah would bring judgment, and establish His messianic kingdom where Israel will be preeminent of all the nations. John the Baptist himself was confused about why Jesus was not fitting the messianic expectations derived from the Scriptures. The two disciples on the road to Emmaus told Jesus that they were hoping Jesus was the Messiah who would "redeem Israel." Then Jesus corrects their understanding of the Scriptures about the Messiah that He had to suffer first, since they did not anticipate that there are two separate comings of the Messiah. But... Did Jesus ever correct their understanding of the promises concerning Israel in the Scriptures, that they were wrong to think that the promises to "Israel" are to ethnic Israel? In Acts 1, Jesus spends forty days with the disciples "speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God." Then the disciples ask Jesus, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" They ask this question after forty days of intensive lectures about the kingdom. Jesus does not rebuke them for still believing in the messianic kingdom promises, but He merely says that it is not for them to know when exactly, "which the Father has fixed by His own authority." Jay: so you say that you agree with the verses I provided you (John 1:12-13, Galatians 3:6-7, etc.) but then you proceed to completely disregard those texts by affirming that all of the OT promises are exclusive to ethnic Israel. And so with that hermeneutic, everything else you say sort of goes downhill from there. Let me ask you a question. Does God have two peoples, or one? Skunk: That is a disappointing mischaracterization of my position. Again, I believe these passages, and I do not agree with your mis-labelling believers as "true Israel," and I have already explained to you why. Again, the only proper interpretation is that all the OT promises concerning Israel is with Israel, and there are obvious applications to all people regardless of ethnicity (Galatians 3:10; 2Corinthians 3:6). "Does God have two peoples, or one?" Your question does not seem to appreciate the categorical distinction between people who will ultimately enter the kingdom, and the ethnic people of Israel. God has a people called Israel, with whom He made the covenants. God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be the nation through whom He testifies to the entire world about who the true God is. And there are promises that God who is faithful made to the ethnic Israel which have yet to be fulfilled. At the same time, if by "the people of God" you mean those who truly believe, who are spiritually born, and who possess eternal life, then not all Israel are the people of God, in the same way some Gentiles are the people of God. Jay: what does it mean to be a child of Abraham by faith and not by flesh? Skunk: It means that Paul is very careful to describe all believers, Jew and Gentile, as the spiritual and the true children of Abraham and heirs of eternal blessing by virtue of their sharing the same faith of Abraham (as opposed to being merely earthly descendants), and as the partial fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant (which also includes promises pertaining to his earthly children and a specific geography of the earthly Promised Land). Paul does not call Gentile believers "Israel." And when he does mention "Israel," he is careful to provide the context so that the readers may understand he is speaking only within the context of the nation Israel (e.g. Romans 9:6; not all Israelites who are from Jacob are the true children of Abraham's faith; again, the Gentiles are not at all a part of the discussion here). Jay: which promises to ethnic Israel are yet to be completed? Skunk: Instead of asking me... you should ask Zacharias in Luke 1:68-79, who by the Holy Spirit, makes mention of the promises of Davidic, Abrahamic, and the New covenants that pertain to the nation Israel that have yet to be fulfilled. The covenants that God made with the nation Israel are: Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New. And each of these applies directly to the nation and also carries implications for the fates of all the Gentiles. And all the covenants are irrevocable covenants made between God and Israel. The promises of Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 15:5,18-20; 17:1-8,19; 22:16-18; 26:3-5,24; 28:4,13-15; 35:9-12; Deuteronomy 7:12-15; 26:18,19; 28:1-14; 30:7,9; Isaiah 60:1-18; Ezekiel 36:28; Zechariah 12:8,9...): many offspring, the land, worship of Yahweh, benefactor to the nations, preeminence among nations, economical prosperity, health, societal blessing, victory over all enemy nations. The Abrahamic covenant points to Israel as the nation chosen to accomplish God's special purposes, hence the preeminent nation among the world. There has never been another nation in the world that has been a source of greater blessing than Israel (i.e. the Bible, the covenants, the Messiah). And the promise of the fullness of the promised blessing which flows from them to the whole world remains to be fulfilled. They have yet to become the whole nation of missionaries and evangelists, the most powerful nation who will police the international affairs with justice and wisdom, the nation with the most abundant resources, the most charitable nation to the needy. They have yet to possess the promised earthly land. They have yet to realize the promised peace (health, agricultural flourishing, economical prosperity, neutralizing of all hostile nations). They have yet to nationally worship Yahweh as their God and truly become His people fit for the eternal kingdom of their Messiah. However, the complete fulfillment of this covenant is contingent on another covenant: Mosaic. The promises of Davidic covenant (2Samuel 7:10-13,16; 1Chronicles 17:11-14; Psalm 2; Psalm 89:3-4,20-29,34-37; Psalm 110; Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 7:13,14; Zechariah 2:4-13; 9:9,10; 14:9...): destruction of hostile nations, eternal reign of David's house, dominion over all nations. The Davidic covenant promises that a Son of David, who is God Himself, will become the Messiah of Israel, and will destroy all the enemies of Israel, deliver Israel from all oppression, establish His throne in Jerusalem from which He will rule over not only the land of Israel but over the entire world "with a rod of iron." This covenant shares the same promises with Abrahamic covenant, and its fulfillment is also dependent on Israel's obedience to God's commandments laid out in Mosaic covenant (Isaiah 59:1,2). In other words, Davidic covenant promises will be fulfilled at the same time as Abrahamic covenant promises (Lk 1:68-75). The promises of Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 15:26; 19:5,6; 23:25,26; Deuteronomy 7:9-15; 26:16-19; 27:9,10,26; 28:1-68; 29:10-13; 30:1-5,10): curse for disobedience >> anti-Abrahamic covenant promises (sickness and death, banishment from land, captivity in other nations, famine, military defeat, dishonour, oppression, idolatry, collapse of civilization, slavery, population decimation) || blessing for obedience >> regathering to the land, Abrahamic covenant promises. Mosaic covenant is the only covenant, the promises of which depends entirely on Israel, and either promises blessings or curses depending on their obedience or disobedience. Thus, the covenant does not guarantee one predestined path for Israel, but two paths, either of which the nation takes of their own volition: one toward blessing or one toward curse. The covenant promises the blessings of Abrahamic covenant if Israel obeys and worships Yahweh. Conversely, if they disobey and worship other gods, then the covenant promises the curses. The terms of this covenant constitute God's perfect law, and it proves ultimately impossible to keep. In effect, the covenant is designed only to give the personal knowledge of the power of sin that is at work within each of them (ref. Romans 7:7-13; 8:2,3), and curse them all. By extension, every Gentile who reads the Bible also understands that Yahweh's holy law is constantly broken by their own sinful nature, and that they are under the same curse of judgment (ref. Ezekiel 18:20; Daniel 12:2), even if they may not experience the specific details of the curse meant for the nation Israel. The only way Israel (or the Gentiles) can ever receive the promises of Abrahamic and Davidic covenants is if... this curse is lifted from them, and they walk in perfect obedience to God (Ezekiel 18:30-32). Thus, God graciously makes the New covenant with Israel, the fulfillment of which would then also activate Abrahamic and Davidic covenant promises. The promises of the New covenant (Deuteronomy 30:6,8; Psalm 40:6-8; Isaiah 9:2; 42:6,7; 49:6; 53:1-6; 54:10; 59:16-60:3; 61:1-2; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:22-27; Zechariah 12:10-13:1; Malachi 4:2 (2Peter 1:19; Revelation 22:16)...): blood atonement offered by the Messiah; freedom from slavery to sin, new heart, new desire, spirit of obedience, breaking the power of sin within the soul, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, national mourning and repentance, personal salvation of every living Israelite some future day, shining light of the Messiah on moral and knowledge darkness, complete forgiveness of sins, eternal fellowship with God, extended offer of the same salvation to the Gentiles. The New covenant promises that the Holy Spirit will one day invade all the souls of living Israelites, and save them from the penalty and the power of sin (and eventually the presence of sin). God will open their eyes to the truth about the crucified man Jesus, and grant them contrition and repentance. They will, as a whole nation, confess Jesus as their Lord and Messiah who died for their sins on the cross and rose from the dead. God will forgive all their sins, and will plant a new disposition within them so that they will pursue righteousness and obedience to His word with thankfulness in their hearts. They will no longer be slaves of sin but slaves of Christ (and truly become God's people who belong to Him for eternity). And the covenant also promises that God will reveal the Messiah to the Gentiles and grant them the same repentance. The New covenant is the only way for Israel (and the Gentiles) to enter into Abrahamic and Davidic blessings, because it provides the two things necessary to altogether remove the path of the curse of Mosaic covenant: complete forgiveness of their violation of Mosaic covenant (made available by their Messiah's bearing the curse in their place (ref. Galatians 3:13,14)), and the rebirth into God's family (so as to possess through imputation the perfect obedience of Christ to Mosaic covenant, possess the power to walk in obedience to Mosaic covenant (ref. Romans 8:2-4; 2Corinthians 5:21; Titus 3:5)). These promises have not happened in the first coming of the Messiah, but await to be fulfilled in His second coming. The reason why Israel did not receive these blessings is not because these promises were not true. Israel did not receive the blessings, because... they assumed they would receive it simply by virtue of their earthly lineage from Abraham (Luke 3:8), or they thought they could keep the Mosaic covenant and earn the blessings (Romans 9:31,32)... and they were wrong. In order to receive the blessings, they must first enter the New covenant... through faith (Genesis 15:6; Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 3:21-28; Galatians 3:6-14). To conclude, these covenant promises to ethnic Israel are irrevocable promises of God. In fact, it is only for the reason of their immutability that the Gentiles have any hope of sharing in the blessings of Israel. Jeremiah, after announcing the coming of the New covenant says... Thus says Yahweh who gives the sun for light by day and the statutes of the moon and the stars for light by night, "If these statutes depart from before Me, then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever. If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done" (Jeremiah 31:35-37). Paul affirms Zacharias' beliefs about God's covenants in Romans 11:25,26... "I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Second Opponent CHRIS: Should Jewish ethnic national state called Israel be forced to embrace diversity and multiculturalism, Or do they have a right to exist as a tribe of people? SKUNK: What, as if Israel's existence was ever at the mercy of the world? The world has been trying to exterminate Israel from the beginning, and has failed. Thus says Yahweh who gives the sun for light by day and the statutes of the moon and the stars for light by night, "If these statutes depart from before Me, then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever. If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done" (Jeremiah 31:35-37). All the blessings of salvation are through the covenants Yahweh made with Israel, you arrogant Gentile. CHRIS: Who said that Israel is at the mercy of the world? True Israel(the Church) Why have Jews been kicked out of every country they were in up until 1948? Why would Germany try to push them out of their country? What were they doing to provoke such actions in Christianized lands? The verse you quoted is for the New covenant which is talking about the Israel of God. Aka the Church. The true Israel. Both Gentile and Jew as one people. Not a special chosen favored race of people. Context is everything. So, as to Zionism and my post should Jewish ethnic(kinist) national state be forced to embrace diversity and multiculturalism, or do they have a right to exist as a tribe of people? SKUNK: All the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New) are made between Yahweh and Israel (Ro 9:4). You have to willfully ignore the entire testimony of the faithfulness of God toward Israel and His love for His nation, and abandon every proper hermeneutic in order to think that you can replace Israel with church. Not once does any writer of the NT speak of Israel as any other entity than the ethnic Israel. God has not revoked any of His promises concerning Israel. And you are simply a beneficiary of the blessings of Israel that God gives to Israel. You are forgiven, cleansed, will be ushered into the future Abrahamic blessings, BECAUSE all the covenant promises that God made to Israel remain unbroken. As for the pogroms and hatred toward the Jewish people, you will find that the animosity originates from the same source as that of the animosity of demon-possessed Hitler. You are asking: Does Israel have a right to exist? Again, what: AS IF anyone has the ability to exterminate Israel if they wanted to, when God sustains their existence for the fulfilling of His covenant promises? If Israel ceases to exist, then all the covenant promises of God are proven to be false, and you, a Gentile, certainly have only the lake of fire to look forward to. Third Opponent Curious OWEN:
are you allowed to read the letter to the hebrews? SKUNK: where I live, the government hasn't criminalized Bible reading yet. OWEN: but hebrews is written to the jews? The jews are Isreal not the church right? Or am I not understanding your theology? SKUNK: oh, i see what you mean. Yes, the OT and the book of Hebrews has Israelites for their direct audience in mind for the most part. OWEN: are you Jewish? SKUNK: i am not. OWEN: so you're not part of Isreal? SKUNK: i am not. OWEN: so the old testament isn't meant for you, and you shouldn't read it, right? SKUNK: how does that follow? OWEN: it's for Isreal. In your thought the church and Isreal are not the same. So the old testament is not for the chuch being we're not Isreal. SKUNK: i don’t think so. I myself don’t mind peeping into what the God of the universe wrote to a nation that impacts the entire world. Just because a teacher is speaking to one kid in his class doesn’t mean he doesn’t want the rest of the class to pay attention. OWEN: ok. So if the church is not Isreal does that mean jews can go to heaven with belief in Christ? SKUNK: the Jews or Gentiles all must believe in Christ in order to be saved. What makes you conclude otherwise from my premise? OWEN: Isreal is the chosen people of God correct? SKUNK: as in what? OWEN: is Isreal The church Or both The chosen people of God? SKUNK: When I hear “chosen,” i think Israel is the chosen nation to be the channel of the covenant blessings to the rest of the world. OWEN: what is that covenant blessing? SKUNK: The Abrahamic, the New covenant, the Davidic. OWEN: which is? SKUNK: Which is why the church should not be confused with Israel. OWEN: What is the blessing? SKUNK: Salvation. OWEN: which is? SKUNK: Complete atonement, complete forgiveness, spiritual circumcision, removal of the law's curse, eternal life, eternal heaven, eternal kingdom of the Messiah. OWEN: and the messiah is? SKUNK: Jesus. OWEN: who is He for? SKUNK: for Jews as well as the Gentiles OWEN: so everyone? SKUNK: yes. OWEN: so is everyone who believes in Christ the children of God? SKUNK: yes. OWEN: and Isreal are the children of God? SKUNK: yes, but in a different sense. The church is the children of God as individuals who are all beneficiaries of the covenant blessings and are all given eternal life. Israel is the children of God as a national entity that are promised the covenant blessings that will be fulfilled one future day for all its individual people. OWEN: hasn't the covenant with Israel been fulfilled through Christ? SKUNK: The covenant promises are only partially fulfilled. But Israel is yet to find peace from all enemy threat, the Messiah has not yet returned to Israel to dominate the entire world, Israel has yet to repent and confess Jesus is their Messiah. OWEN: But Christ has won. Rejoice the battles won, Sin Death and the devil have been defeated, all in Christ have peace. Or would you say Christ hasn't finished his job? SKUNK: what job? OWEN: defeating Sin death and the devil, freeing the world from sin. SKUNK: I don't disagree. But I want to be more specific. The atonement for the sins of believers who lived in the past and will come in the future, is complete on the cross. So Christ's job of removing the curse of the law on the cross and fulfilling righteousness on behalf of believers, is complete. OWEN: yes. So are believers not a chosen people? SKUNK: I think you already asked that. And I answered that they are chosen. The believers are the children of God in the redemptive sense. OWEN: ok. So the church are the chosen people in redemption, Isreal is chosen in the world but Isreal is danmed to hell since they reject Christ? SKUNK: Anyone is damned to hell if they reject Christ. OWEN: so God has abandoned Isreal? SKUNK: "If these statutes depart from before Me, then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever. If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done." So no. OWEN: what verse is that? SKUNK: Jeremiah 31 OWEN: so let me see if I understand you. Isreal equals God's chosen people, but only those who are in Christ can obtain heaven. The rest Of Jewish Isreal reject Christ so are thefore damned to hell. You still still wait for an earthly kingdom to be built on earth for the Jewish Isreal that rejects Christ even after the pharasies asked that same question of Christ and he told them his kingdom was not of this earth. But the Church who follows Christ and the believers who will inherent the Kingdom of heaven and the new heaven and earth after the judgment will have nothing to do with this earthly Jewish kingdom? SKUNK: Israel is indeed God's chosen nation. The prophets and apostles are from Israel. The Messiah is from Israel. The covenant blessings the world can enjoy is because of God's faithful promises to Israel. One future day, all Israel will believe, and they will all be saved. The fact that every individual person in Israel at this time in history is not a true believer in Yahweh means that the covenant promises are not fulfilled. Everyone who does not believe in Christ is damned to hell, Jew or Gentile. The Pharisees were mocking Jesus' claim to Messiahship. They expected the earthly kingdom to accompany the Messiah. But Jesus responds that the Messiah must first suffer and be rejected. For the present, the kingdom of Christ is only invisible and manifest in the minds of those who believe and confess His Lordship, i.e. believers. Jesus is the one who promised an earthly Messianic kingdom. And He promised to return to fulfill His promise. The Church, after they are raptured, will return with Christ when He comes back to set up His earthly kingdom. OWEN: Christ has fulfilled the coven and reins now Christ is king over all creation. We are Isreal SKUNK: Owen You have not earned the "We are Israel" position one bit, because you haven't shown it. OWEN: I don't need to. You've only shown that you don't believe Christ told the truth when he said it was finished. SKUNK: not at all. I do understand and believe what Christ said. You have not shown you even understand what “it is finished” means, because apparently you insist on a very superficial reading and jump to very hasty and sloppy conclusions. OWEN: I jump to the conclusion that Christ is king and has defeated sin death and the devil. I also acknowledge that Christ doesn't promise and earthly kingdom before the newheaven and new earth and that the rapture is mentioned nowhere in scripture.
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CategoriesAll Discourse Doctrines Gospel Humour NT Commentaries OT Commentaries Tactical Life Date
August 2023
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